Your question was: Is there anything better than NO2 at VitaminShoppe store?.
Thanks for the advice guys. Winny it is! I'm 66kg now I'd like to get up to 72kg in a cycle or 2. I know it's not super gains, but I'd rather go for goals that are achievable. Ive found a 3000mg milk thistle product - guess I'll go for that.
I didn't realise Nolvadex was needed. Its just that stuff I've read on Winny states it doesn't turn into estrogen. Still, I think it's back to some research. Thanks for the help guys...
I feel the need to point out winny is not low in the androgenic stakes, with it's relation to DHT - if you don't want androgenic, go for Var...
Depends what your comparing it to , mate!!.
Compared to Anavar it is an androgen, but compared to Test, it's a low androgen [Ratios around 1:6, andro:anabolic for Winny].
Also, as irf2112 pointed out Nolvadex is not needed coz neither stanozolol nor oxandrolone convert to estrogen. Infact with Oxandrolone no PCT would be needed (unless using excessively high doses) but at the standard dose of 30mg per day, it will have virtually no impact on the testes production of test. I would opt for an off the shelf test booster like S.A.N - Endotest or DesignerSupplements - Rebound XT, however Clomid would do as good a job at about a quarter of the price..
Also in regards to PCT, the lower androgen DHT derivatives require a different plan of attack as the side effects are different..
1:- Milk Thistle is a great idea, one I personnally adhere to regularly throughoutt the year regardless of on or off status. Although 3000mg a day is a wee bit overkill 1500-2000mg is normal. 3000mg would be more for the high dose heavy androgen cycles..
2:- As explained above their is no need for Nolvadex as there is no estrogen conversion, however, Saw Palmetto would be required to cover the DHT aspect and help keep your prostate healthy...
Now I'm a little confused. You are referring to winny orals?.
I contacted AnT's and was told Tamoxifen (Nolvadex) isn't required for a winny cycle...
That's plain wrong, any endogenous hormones = shutdown. I'd like to see research to back up your POV here...
Other than the fact it's the ONLY AAS precribed to children..
Before the Controlled Substances Act was passed to restrict the production, sale, and usage of anabolic steroids, Oxandrolone's characteristics lent itself well towards use by female athletes. Its specificity targeting the androgen receptor meant that, unlike many other steroids, it had not been reported to cause stunted growth in younger users, and at typical dosage rarely caused noticeable masculinising effects outside of stimulating muscle growth. In addition, Oxandrolone (17b-hydroxy-17a-methyl-2-oxa-5a-androstan-3-one) does not aromatise at any dosage, and is not easily metabolised into DHT or oestrogen. As such, a typical dose of 20-30 mg provided elevated androgen levels for up to eight hours. To increase effectiveness, bodybuilders typically "stacked" the drug with others such as Testosterone, further enhancing body mass gain.[quote].
[quote]Oxandrolone also has little effect on the body's own natural hormone production. The negative feedback was found to be very minor, meaning that during short term use no suppression of Gonadotropin releasing hormone (GnRH, start of natural testosterone production) was noted. This meant that whatever gains made, as little as they may have been, were very easily maintained post-cycle. So there was also no use for products like Clomid or Nolvadex in conjunction with oxandrolone consumption. The easy to maintain low gains would indicate a low binding to the androgen receptor. While not extremely high, it should actually be noted that it does have quite decent binding to the androgen receptor.
Rarely if ever are doses higher than 20 mg used on a daily basis. Either because of convenience or due to the high price. But comparing that the doses of other steroids this is remarkably low. So it's only logical the gains and side-effects aren't particularly notable. [quote].
Just a couple for ya mate. 8).
However, it seems I was wrong about the need for even Clomid....whadda ya know..
I agree it does not aromatize, however the second paragraph related to shutdown is just Big Cat's conjecture. I meant an actual research paper...
Cheers for the info guys. So that means it's ok to take winny on it's own (no nolv etc). AnT's sell them in 10mg tabs. I was thinking of starting off with a 7 week cycle.
Week 1 - 10mg p/day.
Week 2 - 20mg p/day.
Week 3 - 30mg p/day.
Week 4 - 40mg p/day.
Week 5 - 30mg p/day.
Week 6 - 20mg p/day.
Week 7 - 10mg p/day.
I'm planning on going for this approach because I want to ease myself in, and when the cycle finishes I dont want to stop a high dosage. Otherwise my body would probably panic when it isn't 'fed'.
As for the Milk Thistle - your right (Neil) I should incorporate it throughtout the year. As for a 3000mg tab - I can always have half a tab a day - as they dont come in a shell.
AnT stated 50mg of winny was a good daily dosage. I'll be taking less, as I dont want to push it.
Also - does it mean I dont need Saw Palmetto either?..
Couple of points...
1 - nolvadex or clomid is not needed during cycle to stop gyno... HOWEVER.. one of them IS NEEDED at end of cycle for PCT.. i.e. putting your natural test production back to normal. gyno and PCT are two totally separate things! search teh forum for how to structure your PCT!.
2 - no need to taper up or down mate.. all this does is lessen yuor gains and make your recovery harder... running the same dose throughout the cycle will NOT give you any worse side effects! in terms of dosage 20-50mg daily is a safe dose for you.. however as your running winny on it's own id say go for the higher end!! it will do you no harm!.
Also... Neil mate sorry to disagree with you here.. but MD published extracts of a study recently showing that shutdown DOES occur with anavar even at a low dose! irf2112 - basically just so your not overly confused here.. shutdown in this sense basically means your body stops producing it's own testosterone... which is why PCT is needed at end of your cycle - to fix this problem... and you would have this problem whether you used winny or anavar!.
Hope this all helps!..
Agreed. I reckon all thats spot on. IMO Plus why not use nolva for PCT?..
As I said before.
Don't taper. Use Nolva for PCT..
I agree with razg here, definitely need PCT and shutdown although it may not be total shutdown, is still shutdown, it needs reparation after the cycle..
Irf2112, from experience, I can say at those dosages you're not really gonna get many if any gains from this cycle - i'd say stick to 40mgs a day for 6 weeks total. buy lots of liver support stuff, and run nolvadex at 40mg for 1 week, 20mg for 2 weeks (per day), the day after you finish the winnie..
So the entire thing including pct will be 9 weeks..
Cheers for the advice. The only reason I wanted to go for the tapered approach is - if my body doesn't like the stuff I think it would be better to find out with 10mg in me, rather than 40.
As for the liver stuff I've mentioned a little earlier I was going to use Milk Thistle. Thing is, Ive heard of Liv52 but can't find it anywhere.
Could I build up to 40mg's in three weeks and sustain the amount for another 3?..
Mate... forget the building up... it honestly has no difference other than giving you less gains!!.
If your body dont like it then it dont matter how much of it your taking at the end of the day!.
There really is no need for you to be so cautious.....
An often used first cycle is dbol decca at 20mg daily and 400mg weekly respectively... which gives an average daily mg level of about 75mg......
Yuor 10mg will do absolutely nothing!! actually... just to check... are you male or female??..
There does seem to be an urban myth that winny require no pct/nolva-.
Fell for it myself a while back.
You mention you do 20 rep squats mate-.
Have you read BRAWN? :P..
What would be the minimum length of a cycle of oral winny? Would oral winny on it's own be a good first time cycle?..
Leeb :- Not seen the MD article, gonna have to try digging it out. Is it in a recent issue?.
I guess thats half the problem with things like this one study is not proof positive either way, so finding a study proving no/little effect on endogenous test levels doesn't make it so, just as one study proving the other way isn't either, and depending on which study you see, will effect subsequent opinions! Good thing we have forums so we can exchange what we've learnt !.
A lot of the problems people get with winni could be down to the fact that a great deal of 'Black market' winstrol is just Methandrostenolone, and unless you have access to lab analysis you never can say for certain. This is one of the main point Bill Llewelyn puts across in his articles, fakes are so good now that only a lab can tell. :?.
I must clarify that , with regards to winni, I speak ONLY from personal experiance, and I've never had any sides from using it, nor neede PCT, however I am luck in that I have a very reliable supplier who makes extra certainty that i'm getting what I actually need coz I compete.
With regards to PCT, the whole purpose is to reduce/eliminate potential rebound...be it estrogenic, cortisol, DHT liver function etc and this is where you start when structuring your PCT, what fits one cycle doesn't always fit another..
One final point, upon reflection, and taking on board all your points of view, I acquiece and agree it is better to air on the side of caution and include some form of PCT after ALL cycles of AAS, regardless of androgenicity..
[If only threads on certain other forums could be this productive! ].
All the best guys!!!!..
I don't think their is a 'minimum length of cycle' for any AAS, it is personal choice. I know guys who do 3 weeks on 2 week off all year round and they go onstage every year a few pounds heavier almost without fail!.
I , personnally wouldn't go below 4 weeks, but it is very much dependant on what sport your in, your personal goals and so on..
With regards to using on it's own as a first cycle, I can think of far worse options to use!..
In response to some previous messages. Yes am a bloke (although my weight should be heavier). And yes Stuart McRoberts 'Brawn' has been utilised in my training. Albeit with a few tweaks (I think 2 times a week is a little too short).
Ive just read about winny on bodybuilding.com and it's stated that PCT isn't required. I think I'll stick to PCT though just to be safe. Nobodies mentioned clomid - still thats prob another can of worms..
I'll also be taking milk thistle. Could someone PM me with a reputable supplier of Liv52. Dont want to upset the sponsors on here.
Thanks for all the help so far. This really is a cracking forum...
Cheers for the link Nick -.
Ive just realised they also have a shop on ebay (SS Healthfoods) - which'll be cheaper on the p&p...
Yeah it's awesome to have some of the competitors here to learn from and that the majority of advice is from personal experience. You can't argue with that..
I've only ever taken winny from an extremely reputable powder source and I capped it all myself so I know exactly how much etc. That said I did take it with tbol but it shut me down ****ing hard..
Anyway good thread guys..
This has been a damn useful thread for me..
Recon I will give oral winny a go on a 4 - 6 week long cycle..
Is the Tamoxifen on AnT = Nolvadex? Also, I've come across sites that mention joint pain associated with Winny, anyone with any experiences?..
Irf... only asked if yuo were male or female as dosages for the two are drastically different.. and I didnt want to be reccomending to women that they are ok to take steroids!!!.
Yes tamoxifen is nolvadex!.
Joint pain is something some people get.. I cant say ive ever had any problems tho!.
Neil - think the var article was either last issue or the one before!!..
Hi Lee - Did mention I was a bloke before. Cheers for the advice.
To summarise -.
I shall be taking:.
40mg of Winny a day for a 6 week cycle. Then.
40mg of Nolva for one week.
20mg of Nolva for two weeks.
Total - 9 weeks.
Also be taking 1500mg of milk thistle.
2-3 tabs of liv52.
Also be taking my protein supp.
And a multi to cap it all off (get mine from Nutrisport).
My question is - is Liv52 only required during the 6 weeks of winny or should it be taken for the whole 9? Also - what's the best dosage?.
Also - for winny when should the tabs be taken? With meals? split throughout the day? Same goes for Nolva. Sorry for all the questions - but it's better to be in the know then not..
Once again thanks everyone for all the useful advice...
Nolva just take in morning!.
Winny split throughout the day... pref with meals (all tho in reality you could take it all at once it's always easier to split).
Liv52... pass.. I dont use it!..
Liv52 for the whole 9 weeks to aid recovery of the liver. it's very cheap anyway...
Explain mate as years ago when I first started gear I never used any PCT and never had any problems down below. I never knew what PCT was till I came on here..
Can you just explain your experiance with us all..
2 tabs, 3 times a day with winnie.
2 tabs, 2 times a day in pct.
6 weeks = 42 x 6 = 252.
3 weeks = 21 x 4 = 84.
= 336 tabs.
So buy 6 tubs of 60 tabs at 2.99 each ~ 20..
Imo, no need to run milk thistle alongside it...
Cheers for the info Nick.
I'll also run milk thistle along side just for the sake of the protein I take in.
And also just to be 110% safe. Besides I found a place selling 3000mg tabs for around 7 with a buy one get one free offer...
The little men were little about sums it up..