What Nas song is this "i be so catty, to calm my nerves i need the herb VitaminShoppe dont carry"?

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My first question is: What Nas song is this "i be so catty, to calm my nerves I need the herb VitaminShoppe dont carry"?.

My next question is: Hi guys,.

Im going to start a new course in 2 weeks and was wondering if anyone can help..

My course will be 10ml Sustanon250 and 10ml Deca a nice simple course to get me back into bodybuilding..

I have already purchased some nolvadex and milk thistle..

Anything else I need and also what dosage should a take nolvadex at ? .

Thanks in advance , Peter...

Comments (17)

Your question was: What Nas song is this "i be so catty, to calm my nerves I need the herb VitaminShoppe dont carry"?.

I will be running at 2ml sust.. 2ml deca p/w over 5 weeks..

Bro it dont have any sense ... better take it for 10 weeks ....

Becuse susta and eca will start to kick your ass in about 4 week so you will end you cycle when it just start to acting ....

And get some hcg for pct .....

Comment #1

Well, i'm gunna be controversial, just for a change (mmmm)..

It's not for everyone, in fact most people, but in my case it applies, so here goes....

I don't do ANY pct...

Comment #2

I have absolutely shed loads of Info on various anti-estrogens/aromatase inhibitors unfortunately if I posted them they'd take up several pages. (Printed them off at work and it was over 30pages as I recall).

And I know for a fact that Paul S has written so many PCT article he must be bored Sh1tless of the topic by now..

Here's the one he posted on

Hope it all fits on??!?!.

Post Cycle Therapy.

By Anthony Roberts.

After a cycle, we have one goal: to hold onto the gains we made during the cycle. Unfortunately, this is easier said than done, because the levels of various hormones and other substances that were circulating around your body during the cycle (huge amounts of testosterone, insulin-like growth factor, growth hormone, and lower amounts of muscle-wasting glucocorticoids) are now changing. Sadly, they are making way for lower amounts of the hormones we want for building muscle, and higher amounts of the catabolic ones. What needs to be done, as quickly as possible, is to get your body to begin production of your own natural anabolic hormones, and produce less of the catabolic ones. Unfortunately, your body has other plans.

But then, so do I.

And Im very confident that this protocol will allow you to recover your own natural hormonal levels quickly and lose far less of the gains you worked so hard for on the cycle. This protocol, which is typically implemented after a cycle is called Post Cycle Therapy or PCT for short..

First, Im going to tell you what anabolic hormones are typically low when a cycle ends, and which catabolic ones are high, then Ill tell you what drugs can change that condition as fast as possible. Is all of this necessary? No, not at all. You can skip to the end of the article and look for a little chart I made - the extent of my computer skill - which has all of the dosage recommendations and compounds involved to properly recover from your cycle. I think, however, that youll see some very odd recommendations if you simply skip to the end, and will find yourself reading through the whole article to find out where they came from - or maybe youll just try to find out whats gotten into me?.

Im not re-inventing the wheel here, and you may have seen a piece of this information elsewhere (possibly in something Ive written, possibly somewhere else on the Internet or in a magazine), but Im sure of two things:.

Youve never seen this PCT protocol anywhere.

This is the most effective PCT youll ever see.

First, Ill give you a brief explanation on the body and how it works, and why theres a lag-time after the cessation of Anabolic Steroids before the body returns to normal. Remember, during this lag-time you lose gains, so we really need to make it as short as possible. First, we need to understand a bit of what is going on in your body, what causes it to happen naturally, and what hormones are performing what function. Dont worry, Ill try to make it painless..

At the age of puberty, Gonadotropin Releasing Hormone (GnRH) is increasingly released from the Hypothalamus, in turn causing the secretion of Follicle Stimulating Hormone (FSH) and Luteinizing Hormone (LH) from the pituitary, and finally the male gonads (testes) are then stimulated by those pituitary hormones (LH and FSH). (1). FSH, although generally thought to only have a role in production of sperm, actually aids the in regulation of Leydig Cell function (2), while LH directly causes the Leydig Cells in the testes to secrete androgenic hormones such as testosterone (which is causes a surge in other anabolic hormones: Insulin Like Growth Factor, Growth Hormone, etc). Androgen's do this by then targeting other tissues inside the body, either by attaching to the Androgen Receptors (AR), which are found primarily in the cytoplasm of specific cells, or by whats known as non-receptor mediated effects. When an androgen (your own natural testosterone or an anabolic steroid youve injected or ingested) binds to a receptor inside the cell, it activates the transcription of specific genes. What does this mean? Dont worry, it just means that the steroid molecule gives the cell a message to do something.

In the case of testosterone (or anabolic steroids in general), this transcription causes a lot of different anabolic effects to take place: an increase in IGF, a decrease in cortisol, an increase in Red Blood Cell count, and the increased protein synthesis I already told you about. This is not to say that AR binding is the only thing that causes anabolic or androgenic effects, however. Oxymetholone and Methandrostenolone (Anadrol and Dianabol) both bind very weakly to the AR yet are both highly anabolic and androgenic. The diagram below is an example of an androgens entry into a target cell, where it (in this case) stimulates protein synthesis, which is a major anabolic effect:.

Under the control of this heightened state of androgens, you also go through androgenic development as well as anabolic development. This can be seen in puberty when males grow body hair experience voice changes, as experience genital development and growth..

Another characteristic of androgens in the body is that they are subject to whats known as a negative feedback loop. Lets review one of the first things I mentioned, ok? Your Hypothalamus secretes GnRH, thus making the pituitary secrete LH & FSH, finally in turn causing the testes to stimulate the Leydig cells to produce testosterone (by conversion of cholesterol), remember? Ok, now, once testosterone is created however, it has the ability to in turn to undergo various metabolic processes that will inhibit GnRH, which in turn inhibits the secretion of LH and FSH, and that brings a halt to natural testosterone production. Once testosterone has stopped being produced, it no longer sends this negative signal, and GnRH eventually begins to do it's job again. In this way, your body prevents excess hormones from being secreted and thus maintaining homeostasis (the status quo in this case a state where you are neither gaining nor losing muscle) (1). This negative feedback loop is partially why we use anabolic steroidswe want more testosterone for anabolic purposes (or more Anavar or whatever) than our body will let us produce (not that our bodies produce Anavar, but you get the idea). When we use that injectable testosterone, it sends the message to our body to begin the negative feedback loop and discontinue producing/secreting the hormones that cause our natural testosterone production.

So what Im saying is that anabolic steroids increase androgen levels in the blood, bringing a halt to GnRH, making the pituitary gland (eventually) responds by reducing the release of LH; this loss of LH has the effect of shutting down testosterone, of course, which you know is produced by the Leydig cells in the testes after they are stimulated by LH. Am I being repetitive? Yes. Do you need to understand all of this in order to understand the PCT protocol Im about to outline? Yes. Remember, the negative feedback loop is, of course, no problem while we are on a cycle. Want more testosterone (or androgens) in your body? Fill up a few.

More syringes!.

But all good things come to an end, and most of us choose to end our cycles at some point. At this point, while there is still some androgens floating around in us, our natural production wont begin, and even once they are out, there may be some lag time before your body figures out that it needs to start producing it's own androgens again. As I said before, this lag time is severely catabolic and it's where you lose a lot of your gains. SO what we need to do is coax the body into quickly producing it's own androgens..

One of the first drugs well consider for this purpose is what is typically called a SERM. Nolvadex (Tamoxifen) is a SERM (Selective Estrogen Receptor Modulator, which means that it has the ability to act as an anti-estrogen with regard to certain genes, yet also acting as an estrogen with respect to others. Thats the selective part I guess. It does this by blocking gene transcription in some cases, and initiating gene transcription in others (3). Luckily for us, it has estrogenic effects on bones (meaning it increases their density), and blood lipids - meaning it lowers cholesterol-, (4)(5)as well as preventing gynocomastia by preventing estrogen gene transcription in breast tissue. However, it acts as an anti-estrogen in the pituitary, thus increasing LH and FSH, which results in an increase in testosterone.

First and foremost, it's most common use is for the prevention of gynocomastia. Nolvadex does this by actually competing for the receptor site in breast tissue, and binding to it. Thus, we can safely say that the effect of tamoxifen is through estrogen receptor blockade of breast tissue (7). Estrogen is also important for a properly functioning immune system, and not only that, but your lipid profile (both HDL and LDL) should also show marked improvement with administration of tamoxifen (34)..

Nolvadex also has some important features for the steroid using athlete. In hypogonadic and infertile men given nolvadex, increases in the serum levels of LH, FSH, and most importantly, testosterone were all observed (35)It can also block a bit of estrogen in the pituitary, which is a great benefit when used with HCG (more on that later) (36)(37). The increase in testosterone Nolvadex can give someone with a dysfunctional is basically that 20mgs of Nolvadex will raise your testosterone levels about 150% (6)...Why dont we use Clomid, another SERM? Well, basically because it takes much more to do the same thing. In comparison, it would require 150mgs of Clomid to accomplish that type of elevation in testosterone, but Nolvadex also has the added benefit of significantly increasing the LH.

(Leutenizing Hormone) response to LHRH (LH-releasing hormone) (6). This most likely indicates some kind of upregulation of the LH-receptors due to the anti-estrogenic effect Nolvadex has at the pituitary. Although both Nolvadex and Clomid are both SERMs, they are actually quite different. As you already know, Nolvadex is highly anti-estrogenic at the hypothalamus and pituitary, while Clomid exhibits weak estrogenic activity at the pituitary (7), which as you can guess, is less than ideal. It should be avoided for the PCT Im suggestingand in fact, avoided in generalits simply not as good as Nolvadex..

Need I even add that the 150mgs of Clomid you need to get the hormonal increase experienced with 20mgs of Nolvadex is much more expensive? So lets dump the Clomidand no, using it along with Nolvadex will provide no synergy that Ive ever seen in any relevant study..

SO how much Nolvadex should you use during PCT? I favor using, although to be totally honest, you can probably even get away with far less than that. Doses as low as 5mgs/day have proven to be as effective as 20mgs/day for certain areas of gonadal stimulation. (8) 20mgs/day, however, is a dose that myself and others have used with great success, and the research Ive done in this area typically uses this milligram amount. SO lets stick with 20mgs/day for now..

So that effectively suggests Nolvadex can not be used at Mega-doses to get a mega-increase in your natural hormones. We cant use huge doses of any Anti-Estrogen, actually, and expect huge increases in our natural hormones, actually. Arimidex (an Aromatase Inhibitor which means it stops the conversion of testosterone into estrogen-another drug used to fight breast cancer like Nolvadex) exhibits basically the same effects when .5mgs or a full 1mg is used (9) and I have even read studies where up to 10mgs/day of Arimidex is studied with no clear benefit over 1mg/day. Letrozole (another Aromatase Inhibitor) is capable of inhibiting Aromatase maximally at a mere 100mcg/day (10.). So clearly we need to add in other compounds to our PCT, because Mega-Doses of one compound will not I think it's absurdly funny to see people recommending upwards 40-80mgs/day of Nolvadex, or a full milligram (or two!) of Arimidex, in their post-cycle or on-cycle suggestions. Id steer very clear of listening to anyone who makes those types of recommendations.

All of this tells me that you cant simply use mega-doses of Anti-Estrogens or SERMS to do anything more than reasonable doses. It must be, therefore, that your body can only respond with so much vigor to any one drug in those families. So lets add in another drug or two, ok? This way we can use reasonable doses of a few drugs and produce some synergyhopefully decreasing our recovery time..

Well need something to go with Nolvadex, which acts in a different manner, and Human Chorionic Gonadatropin (HCG) is the clear choice here. Heres where things get a bit controversial (no, reallyI know you , because Im pretty much the only person around (currently) who recommends HCG for Post-Cycle Therapy. Although Im seen as Old School in this respect, really, this is a totally new paradigm for HCG use, made possible only by the inclusion of the other compounds I am introducing to you for PCT. HCG is the natural choice, as it has been used successfully to cure AAS induced (11), and this alone warrants it's inclusion to our cycle..

HCG is a peptide hormone manufactured by the embryo in the early stages of pregnancy and later by the placenta to help control a pregnant womans hormones (can anything really be said to control a pregnant womans hormones except ice-cream and chocolate?). Obviously, as you can guess from the name, it is a substance that stimulates the gonads (hence: gonadotropin). It does this by initiating gene transcription that is identical to that of Luetenizing Hormone, thereby causing the Leydig Cells to produce testosterone. Sounds great right? We can stimulate LH and FSH production with our Nolvadex, and then directly stimulate the Leydig Cells as well, to produce tons of testosterone by different routes! Well...its not all that simple..

Unfortunately, while HCG increases Testosterone, it increases estrogen as well(12). As you probably know, estrogen acts directly on the Leydig cells to effect changes in the activities of enzymes important for testosterone synthesis (13) and may actually be considered an important part of that negative feedback loop I mentioned earlier. In addition, an increase in circulating levels of LH have been shown to induce down-regulation of LH-receptors in both rodent studies (14), as well as in human studies (15); since HCG mimics LH, you can expect it to do the same. This LH downregulation can cause an increase in steroidogenic cholesterol (the cholesterol earmarked by your body for conversion into testosterone). (16). Thus, after the initial HCG induced surge in testosterone is over, if you have used enough to downregulate your LH-receptors and increase estrogen too much, then more steroidogenic cholesterol is available.

In fact, rodent models suggest that if you take a dose large enough to cause a sharp increase of plasma testosterone, you will actually desensitize your Leydig cells to your next shot, and will possibly not experience any rise in testosterone from the second dose at all, or may only experience a very slight one at best (17.). Since this is due to LH-Receptor downregulation, and that occurs in human models too, it is pretty fair to assume that if your first dose of HCG is too large, your second wont be very effective. Unfortunately, this lack of an increase in testosterone doesnt necessarily mean that the HCG may be unable to increase circulating levels of Estrogen (18) And remember that increase in Estrogen will (most likely) cause your body ultimately to produce less testosterone. Low LH post-cycle is not the primary cause of slow recovery, because LH generally rises to levels above baseline after a cycle much sooner than testosterone production does. This is probably because the pituitary is working very hard to get your atrophied Leydig cells to start producing testosterone again.

It would also appear that HCG works very well when it's used on men who have low levels of LH to begin with (as you would be after a cycle), as many studies on pre-pubertal boys and Hypogonadotropic Hypogonadal men would suggest (19).

This suggests that a pre-exposure to normal LH levels or gonadatropins in general is necessary for HCG-induced Leydig Cell desensitization. This, of course is not a problem for us, as well be using it when LH/Gonadatropin levels are very low anyway we just need to stop using it before we regain normal function, or it will work against us eventually. (19) (20). Luckily, the temporary Anabolic steroid induced hypogonadism that is experienced after a cycle basically allows us to respond to HCG like anyone with low LH levels (21), and thus, as I told you, a lot of the possible inhibitory effect of HCG is not going to be relevant because there was no prior priming by circulating gonadotrophins. This is great news for us, because we are going to be using HCG during PCT, when we need to get back some HPTA function, and not when we have levels of gonadatropins high enough to cause HCG-induced desensitization..

But are we still risking some inhibition and possibly delaying our recovery by using HCG? Probably notyou see, some studies in humans have shown that HCG does not actually have a direct effect on inhibiting LH release in men (22)(23), but rather (probably) works to inhibit LH secretion indirectly, simply by stimulating the production of testosterone (thus activating the negative feedback loop). Another factor involved is the induction of testicular aromatase, which raises estrogen levels, again causing inhibition. Unfortunately, yet another process, the downregulation of the Leydig Cell LH receptor itself, seems to also play a role in high dose HCG testicular desensitization. This is also done by HCG actually blocking the conversion of 17 alpha-hydroxyprogesterone (17 OHP) to testosterone (24). Nolvadex actually stops this blocking-action of HCG from taking place (25). Most likely, because of Nolvadexs direct antiestrogenic effect and LH-upregulating effect on the Pituitary, suppression of gonadotropins via HCG is (25) almost totally stopped with concurrent administration of Nolvadex! So if we Use Nolvadex and we are only using HCG when we are low in gonadatropins, we wont be inhibited by it at all! Right?.

Wellmaybebut theres still the issue of estrogen caused by that HCG-stimulated surge in testosterone. Wellwe can use low doses (300iu or so) to avoid some of that major spike in estrogen, and thus cause far less inhibition from the HCG (26). Of course, Id want to use a bit more HCG per injection (500iu), if I could, to get my body functioning fully more quickly, and lose less of my gains. Maybe we can get away with taking some Vitamin E with our HCG, since it increases the responsiveness of plasma testosterone levels to HCG, making them significantly higher during vitamin E administration than without it (27). So we can get a better.

Response with our HCG by taking Vitamin E (I recommend 1,000iu/day), but that doesnt get rid of the problem that we have, which is the estrogen increase the HCG will cause..

Lets solve that pesky estrogen problem now..

Lets add in an Aromatase Inhibitor! Which one, though? Well, since we are already using Nolvadex, we cant use Letrozole or Arimidex, as the Nolvadex will actually greatly decrease the blood plasma levels of them (28)!.

So we have to use Aromasin (exemestane) as our AI, because it's an aromatase inactivator, meaning it makes estrogen receptors useless, and instead of just inhibiting production (as an anti-aromatase would do) it cuts off production totally. Aromasin can also cause androgenic sides (29)(30)(31), which may help to elevate your mood while you are on PCT. This final drug in my recommended PCT can effectively remove up to about 85%+ of estrogen from your body (32). Most importantly, using Aromasin together with Nolvadex doesnt reduce exemestanes effectiveness (33). So now, I think the problem of ANY inhibition possible with HCG is solved, and we can use that 500iu/day dose that I wanted to use previously..

With this PCT, there will be a rapid increase in LH, FSH, and testosterone, as well as almost a complete block on all the factors that could be causing your natural hormones to be delayed in returning to baseline. For this reason, I feel that the second your cycle is over is when you should start this PCT (a week after your last shot, or the day after your last pill is fine). Remember, waiting for some of the extra androgens youve been taking to leave your body is nonsensical, as we want to start recovery as soon as possible to retain maximum gains. There is no evidence to suggest waiting any length of time after your cycle is over will increase PCT effectivenessit simply prolongs the time you arent doing anything positive to regain your natural hormones. And how long do we run this for? Wellwe need to stop the HCG relatively soon for reasons discussed earlier. But the Nolvadex, and Aromasin can be used for awhile longer.

Failing the option of monitoring recovery with blood-work, Im going to give you my best thoughts on the time you should be running your PCT. Its important to note I havent discussed nutrition or other compounds that may be beneficialthis is because in this article, I am primarily concerned with the restoration of hormonal function, nothing else. And with no further delays, here are my recommendations for PCT:.

Week Nolvadex HCG Aromasin Vitamin E.

1 20mgs/day 500iu/day 20-25mgs/day 1000iu/day.

2 20mgs/day 500iu/day 20-25mgs/day 1000iu/day.

3 20mgs/day 500iu/day 20-25mgs/day 1000iu/day.

4 20mgs/day 20-25mgs/day.

5 20mgs/day 20-25mgs/day.

6 20mgs/day..

Comment #3

Wooohhooo, it all fit on..

Cheers Paul S mate...

Comment #4

Cheers Neil mate been busy this last week with prepping guys for the stars and totally forgot about this thread....

Bodyworks why dont you do PCT mate??..

Comment #5

Bro me too not now but at first two of my cycles I wasnt do any pct, why becuse I wasnt know that something like pct even exist hehehe.

And now I'm on a cycle and drink 2 days a week and when I'm drink I drink like a pig.. so we can only try to hepl each other becuse every one will do what he want even when we will write " bro it will kill you ".

Just my 2 cents..

Comment #6

Thanks for that neil. just a quick question would taking nolvadex during a 10 week course of deca dilute the effectiveness of pct .if so what do you recommend when on gear ? :? [i plan on taking 200 mg every 4 days ]..

Comment #7

Well you must have been busy there guru..

I haven't done any pct for a couple of years now i'm guessing. Reason is, i, like you paul, do this sport for the competitive side of nowadays. I look at my own drug use as solely 100% to enable me to compete. I've said it before and I swear it's true, when I hang up the trunks, the needle's going in the bin too..

This all means that my courses are longer, and time off (yes I do still have time off) is shorter. My sole reason for coming off is to 'clean' out my body so to speak. The single best way of achieving this as efficiently and quickly as possible, is to shun ALL drugs completely. Including the ancilleries. While i'm 'off', I am not a bodybuilder. I don't eat like one, think like one or train like one.

The short but much needed rest, recharges me both physically and mentally.

Do I lose much weight ? sh*t yeah. do I care ? hell no. I lose quite a bit of weight in my time off ( last time 24lbs if I remember right) but I get it all back with interest within about 4 weeks of starting back. I'm still much bigger than most people even after dropping this weight, in fact it's quite welcome to carry less bulk around for a while, so i'm perfectly happy with my own physique at this time too..

If I didn't do it this way, and instead went for the more conventional approach of trying to raise up my endogenous testosterone levels when I come off, i'd be wasting my time. It would take literally months to get anywhere near normal levels if it was possible at all. my way, i'm clean, drug free, feeling healthier then back to being big again all in a shorter space of time than this. some of you may not agree with this, but it works for me believe me..

The more astute among you will have spotted a flaw in my plan. When I do retire from the stage and therefor go 'natural' again, i'm gonna struggle big time getting my own test levels up to par. This I know. But, I also believe that most of us who use gear in any way will all have to face that issue, especially those of us who compete over many years.As regards my health, I say my way is less taxing of the body. i'm having more time each year where I take nothing. at all.

If that's not chemical dependancy, what is ? .

Let me just finish by saying, this is NOT the approach I recommend for the average user. For someone trying to build muscle with the help of gear, it is vitally important to implement a propper pct schedule, to ensure you hold on to as much of that muscle as possible when the drugs are gone. In my case, I view my gear usage as a tool to enable me to compete. I come off in the knowledge that in X amount of weeks, i'll be going back on and it will be this way til I quit competing. I love competing and I love being big, but I am a realist and I know I can't, nor do I want to look like this forever. i'm perfectly happy with the amount of muscle I have when i'm off the sauce..

Damn, that was a long post. even i'm not reading all that...

Comment #8

Shane strangely I totally understand what you mean and you definatly have a plan so best to you mate I would say to most who would have this plan they are mad but knowing that you do know your stuff and more importantly your body I would not say the same to you it is a case of horses for courses so to speak....

And yes mate I definatly had my hands full with the prepping but acheived the goals I set for the two I prepped.

Are you competing next year mate??..

Comment #9


Do you still use hcg on-cycle though? I suppose if you aren't totally shutdown because of HCG then leaving PCT out wouldnt be too bad.....

Comment #10

At 200mg Deca every 4 days you shouldn't really have any need for Nolavdex in conjunction as Deca has quite a llow affinity for aromatisation and therefore Gyno..

Personally, with the stack you're planning you shouldn't need much more than a natural test product. Rebound-XT, Novadex or 6-OXO would be sufficient..

Start it the beginning of week 10 and run for approx 21 days..

You'll be good to go again after that, if you decide to...

Comment #11

This is an approach i've have been using more recently, although I use the "Natural" test boosts for the first 2-3 weeks with Milk Thistle, liv 52 etc, and then follow that up with 7-8 weeks clean of everything (although I usually still train)..

Just wondered though, Shane mate, do you use any Liver/Kidney detoxifiers like Milk Thistle, cranberry etc,etc to help with the 'clean out'? Or is it quite litterally from 100% to 0%??.

Just wondered!?..

Comment #12

This whole idea started for me by seeing the Americans do it. Kevin Levrone moreso than anyone. I could not believe it was possible to apparently lose so much muscle, then get it all back so quickly. Guess it doesn't work for everyone, but i've discovered it does for me.

Paul, I am gunna compete next year bud. Start the diet in four weeks actually. I may even be up against you, I plan to do doug's show ( first year it's not fallen on the same weekend as my qualifier ) so hopefully we'll be toe to toe as it were. well done on this weekend's results for your guys too..


'do you still use hcg on-cycle though? I suppose if you aren't totally shutdown because of HCG then leaving PCT out wouldnt be too bad... '.

Honestly, yeah I do on occasion but not with any great regularity or pre planned forethought..


'This is an approach i've have been using more recently, although I use the "Natural" test boosts for the first 2-3 weeks'.

If you mean the over the counter stuff, tribulus and the like, I wouldn't bother. when you're shutdown it'll take a hell of a lot more than that to start things happening..

' Just wondered though, Shane mate, do you use any Liver/Kidney detoxifiers like Milk Thistle, cranberry etc,etc to help with the 'clean out'? Or is it quite litterally from 100% to 0%?? '.

Again, sometimes. this is actually something i'd like to throw back at you guys. Paul especially. Exactly how effective is milk thistle at doing this ? i've always been of the belief that anti-oxidants are more of a preventative measure rather than something to use after a course. If you reckon I should use 'em, I will, but up to now I haven't really bothered with any regularity. coming off really does mean off.

I don't even use paracetamol...

Comment #13

Thanks neil for that will my natural levels of all hormones return to normal (test and estrogen)after that? thanks again..

Comment #14

I personnally find Milk Thistle to be very Effective. In fact I can typically ADD 3-4 pounds in the 2-3 weeks i'm on it. I suspect this to be due to the liver holding a small amount of the gear and the milk thistle helps to flush it back out into the system, thus giving a secondary hit, which can aid as a slight 'taper' to the cycle..

I also don't loose a whole lot of weight post cycle, maybe 3-4lbs although, as I said earlier I do still train..

I actually competed at the Middleton show last year clean, this was exactly 4 weeks after the NABBA Uk. Ordinarilly the first 4 weeks are regarded as the real crash weeks so it was a small experiment on my behalf. I was only 3lb lighter!!..

Comment #15

"When I do retire from the stage and therefor go 'natural' again, i'm gonna struggle big time getting my own test levels up to par. This I know. But, I also believe that most of us who use gear in any way will all have to face that issue.".

So if someone does maybe two or three cycles in their 20's(not a competition bodybuilder) and follows it up with a proper PCT they will struggle to get their natty test levels back up to the levels they were before they did any gear??..

Comment #16


But it's all relative. To what extent was endogenous testosterone surpressed, for how long, how high was it previously etc. I doubt your body will produce quite as much as it once did in your case, but your body produces less naturally as you age anyway. Not a major concern unless it causes any problems for you either physically or psychologically..

I think it's naive to believe you can tamper with your body's own naturally produced hormones, then stop and be exactly as you were before. they should however rebound to such an extent that you'll function just fine. so don't worry...

Comment #17

This question was taken from a support group/message board and re-posted here so others can learn from it.


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